416 or 515 for my new front loaded horn design? Help Please

GM · May 21st, 2012, 02:11 PM

AFA lower, it depends on the build date as to whether the 416 goes lower and WRT higher, all 515s I've dealt with go higher than any OEM 416, i.e. has greater 'snap'. For instance, my 515Bs have a ~20 Hz Fs [avg. 4], lower than any 416 and sufficient HF output run wide open to XO to an 802 super tweeter at 5 kHz/2nd order. Doesn't suit my listening preferences, but some have found it acceptable in certain apps.

That said, I don't know how limited a woofer design 'palette' GPA has available, so the differences may be much less than originally, but with them often just relabeling old Altec data shts. rather than publishing current spec measurements there's no way to know for sure until someone pipes up like Pano was forced to do awhile back.

His and one other person's problems I'm aware of WRT restoring old AlNiCo drivers has convinced me to only recommend buying new from GPA and even then the only measured specs I've seen are a number of 515-8G that spec'd at least as good as published and some a little better, so for the rest, Caveat Emptor applies.

GM

**RonSSS** · May 21st, 2012, 03:05 PM

Weren't most of the 515's designed for horn loading? I remember reading one of Jim Dickenson's papers that stated that. It had to do with the cone shape. One was better for bass reflex use.

He also stated tat the 416 variations on the other hand were best suited to bass reflex use. Of course Altec used them in combo enclosures.

Sound to me like it's going to be a buy it, listen to it, then decide.

What was the pissing match at the start of this thread about? I saw nothing wrong with the original questions. Some history between members?

Ron

GM · May 21st, 2012, 06:06 PM

Yes, and no, only the original 515 and 8G are true horn mid-bass woofers. The rest are various compromises spec wise to make them perform acceptably as the needs of cinema LF BW and the increasingly more powerful amps with increasingly lower output impedance changed over the decades. They really needed to design complete new systems with each major change for new installs, but a quick look at their history explains why they didn't.

IIRC, JD listed the E as best for reflex, but with specs closer to later Bs, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless he just based it on their specs being close to the 416B, 8B.

No prior history I can recall unless I posted on any early thread[s?] of his before finding out they were going to be for profit.

Speaking of JD, last I remember, he'd had a major leg? injury, but unfortunately that's all I remember, so anyone know how that turned out and what he's up to these days? If he posts, I don't recognize the moniker.

GM

**atilsley** · May 21st, 2012, 07:10 PM

Thanks AB, GM...nice to be back in the fold...

For my project, I think I may be trying too hard with the one driver to cover my needs.

A friend suggested that if my primary goal was to have fast bass....then I should concentrate on the 80Hz+ horn...and worry about the sub later. (I've just finished building a massive bass horn sub from Bill Fitzmaurice designs...the Tuba. This sub is overkill for my two channel listeing, but house-wreckingly good for my dedicated HT room. The first track on Pink Flloyd's Dark Side of the Moon has that heart beat in it. It almost broke my windows. )

So, I'm leaning this way...make the large front-loaded horn and NOT have a vented back chamber.

Therefore, would this make the decision more towards the 515 vs 416...?

If I was going to build the large vented back chamber, I would have gone with the 416.

The reason why I'm agonising over this choice, is that I've recently built for myself a nice pair of "Klipsch" Cornscala two-way horns, using the Bob Crites design, with Faital Pro 1.4 comp driver and 15-inch modded Eminence woofer in large 200 Liter cabinet. I like the horn sound for sure....but I want to experience a completely different type of bass sound...hence the focus on a large front-loaded bass design.

Again, thanks for your input...very much appreciated.

Kind regards.

**Altec Best** · May 22nd, 2012, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by GM

AFA lower, it depends on the build date as to whether the 416 goes lower and WRT higher, all 515s I've dealt with go higher than any OEM 416, i.e. has greater 'snap'. For instance, my 515Bs have a ~20 Hz Fs [avg. 4], lower than any 416 and sufficient HF output run wide open to XO to an 802 super tweeter at 5 kHz/2nd order. Doesn't suit my listening preferences, but some have found it acceptable in certain apps.

That said, I don't know how limited a woofer design 'palette' GPA has available, so the differences may be much less than originally, but with them often just relabeling old Altec data shts. rather than publishing current spec measurements there's no way to know for sure until someone pipes up like Pano was forced to do awhile back.

His and one other person's problems I'm aware of WRT restoring old AlNiCo drivers has convinced me to only recommend buying new from GPA and even then the only measured specs I've seen are a number of 515-8G that spec'd at least as good as published and some a little better, so for the rest, Caveat Emptor applies.

GM

GM I think all this falls under personal preference though. Your right on the lower part as the 515B has a freq. response of 20-1000 Hz.The 416B is 30-1600 Hz so it will go a lot higher than a 515B.When I refer to the 416 I meant the 416B, my Fav.and the C variants.They are very close sonically IMO.The 416A's are relabeled 803's IMO.When I say lower I mean in the lower frequencies (Low End) it shines.Where as the 515 has it's snap in the upper frequencies of it's operating bandwidth (Mid Bass-Upper Mid Bass Frequencies). This has a lot to do with personal preference IMO.I never liked the 515's as much.I'm more partial to the low end.Ron brought up a good point on JD's posts.The 515's were designed for horn loading originally and the 416's are a bass reflex woofer.As most HIFI/HT applications are in smaller rooms, I think BR cabs are predominately used here for the bass cabs.The exceptions would be very large home listening environments.I dunno YMMV

http://altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/Spe...%20Speaker.pdf

http://altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/Spe...%20Speaker.pdf

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OK now with regard to Pano's woofers.You might have missed the end to that story.In the end Pano said it was his fault and not Bill's or GPA's.The Alnico slugs in those drivers were bad.Bill replaced the Alnico slugs in them "FREE OF CHARGE" IIRC. Bill was supposed to send the slugs to the manufacturer for inspection to find out why they weren't accepting a charge.When Bill put new magnets in his speakers it then brought them back up to spec... All's well that ends well...

I have had a lot of personal business with GPA/Bill and have yet to have a problem.For original Altec parts, there is no other place.

FWIW- GPA is the only place were you can get original parts for your Altecs today.If you ever have a problem there at (GPA) Bill will always stand by his product.It's money well spent IMHO.

Originally Posted by atilsley

Thanks AB, GM...nice to be back in the fold...

For my project, I think I may be trying too hard with the one driver to cover my needs.

A friend suggested that if my primary goal was to have fast bass....then I should concentrate on the 80Hz+ horn...and worry about the sub later. (I've just finished building a massive bass horn sub from Bill Fitzmaurice designs...the Tuba. This sub is overkill for my two channel listeing, but house-wreckingly good for my dedicated HT room. The first track on Pink Flloyd's Dark Side of the Moon has that heart beat in it. It almost broke my windows. )

So, I'm leaning this way...make the large front-loaded horn and NOT have a vented back chamber.

Therefore, would this make the decision more towards the 515 vs 416...?

If I was going to build the large vented back chamber, I would have gone with the 416.

The reason why I'm agonising over this choice, is that I've recently built for myself a nice pair of "Klipsch" Cornscala two-way horns, using the Bob Crites design, with Faital Pro 1.4 comp driver and 15-inch modded Eminence woofer in large 200 Liter cabinet. I like the horn sound for sure....but I want to experience a completely different type of bass sound...hence the focus on a large front-loaded bass design.

Again, thanks for your input...very much appreciated.

Kind regards.

Your Welcome ! I have Cornwall II's so if you like them you will really LOVE Altec !!!!. I've A/B'd them with my Model 19's and there really is no comparison IMHO.The Cornwalls play a little louder at the same volume because they are just a little more efficient.I just add some volume to the 19's to compensate , the clarity is what grabs me,and what I look for in a speaker.The mid horn is the problem with the Cornwalls and that's why there is this modification "The Cornscala" to address the issue of the small 400 Hz mid horn. YMMV...

**atilsley** · May 22nd, 2012, 05:18 PM

Thanks ab

Appreciate your comments.

It would follow that if my goal is to build a full horn system, then the 515 is the better option.

I've already determined now I'm NOT going to add the large vented rear chamber...just stick with the front loaded design, and worry about sub later. I've built the Tom danley tapped horn before, so I know I can something like that again.

Cheers

**atilsley** · May 22nd, 2012, 05:20 PM

Thanks ab

Appreciate your comments.

It would follow that if my goal is to build a full horn system, then the 515 is the better option.

I've already determined now I'm NOT going to add the large vented rear chamber...just stick with the front loaded design, and worry about sub later. I've built the Tom danley tapped horn before, so I know I can something like that again.

Cheers